CardRunners
What's Your Edge
I’ve been thinking about tilt recently. Specifically, I’ve been trying to come up with common situations that happen at the table which throw me off my game and figure out what it is about that situation that causes the reaction it causes. Once again I turn to “The Bible” to begin looking for guidance: “Tilt is any deviation from your A-game and you’re a-mindset, however slight or fleeting.
There are two reasons to define tilt in this way. One is standardization. All A-games are identical. Anyone who is playing his A-game is making the best decisions he knows how, and his mind is as right as it ever is. That’s what A-game is. So by defining tilt from the top down, we can draw a line for ny player that cleanly divides his tilt from his non-tilt.
The other reason is that we aren’t just playing with words here. We are using them as shovels to dig for gold. And by using the word tilt to focus on our best, instead of our wors, we hit a lode: Tilt is non A-game. Tilt is anything less than your utmost.” (EoP, 55-56)
Tommy then defines hard tilt and soft tilt. These days, when I’m playing 6-12 tables of 200NL, I don’t think I tilt hard, but I’m sure there are plenty of instances where I experience soft tilt. So … what causes me to tilt softly and why? Let’s look at a few situations.
Situation 1: You raise KK from early UTG + 1. An aggressive 3-bettor from the button re-raises you. You decide to make a small 4-bet and he thinks for a bit and then 5-bet ships it in. You snap call, and bam – there is that dreaded Ace on the flop. You can’t see his cards just yet due to the site you are playing on, but sure enough, once the board runs out and the cards are flipped, he scoops the 200BB pot with AJo.
Situation 2: You raise Kd Td from MP and a station calls you from the SB. The player is clearly the target at the table. The flop comes Jd Qc 4d. He checks, you c-bet, he calls. The turn is a 7c. He checks again and you bet again to continue building a pot in case you hit. Once again, he calls. The river is the 8h. He checks, you check behind and he shows you T8o for a missed gutter, but his pair of 8’s is still good enough to take the pot.
Situation 3: An loose 64/25 type sitting on a 150 BB stack min-raises from early position. You are sitting on rockets, 110 BB stack, and since this guy has been in just about every pot, you make a big re-raise to 24 BBs. He insta-calls your raise and checks a Q75r flop to you. You bet 60% pot and he calls rather quickly. The turn is the T with no flush draws out there. He checks again and you bet again – this time around 60% pot to set him up for a river jam. He once again calls rather quickly. The river is a 3 and he checks. You shove and he quickly calls with 33 for a rivered set. He types in the chat “Wow – I put you on AK.”
Situation 4: You open AK from the button and a solid regular 3-bets you. He defends his blinds a lot so you 4-bet for value. As this is happening you pick up JJ on another table in the BB. It’s folded around a solid regular in the SB who opens for pot. You 3-bet him. You attention shifts back to the first table. Now the regular shoves over your 4-bet and you call. On table 2, you are now faced with a 4-bet yourself and you ship it in with your jacks. As the hands run out, you end up losing both – the first to QQ when the board runs out low and the 2nd to AQ on a turned queen. This puts you down 4.5 BI’s for the day.
Situation 5: An aggressive regular opens the button and you 3-bet him from the SB with AK. He calls and the flop comes 57Jr. You c-bet 60% pot and he min-raises.
Situation 6: You’re 190BBs deep with a solid regular. He opens in early position and you flat call in the CO with 88. The flop comes 8h Jh 2s. He c-bets $10 into $12 and you raise to $32. He thinks for a bit and 3-bets to $100. He’s got $280 behind and you cover. You decide that the board is too draw heavy to peel so you shove. He calls and you end up being on the bad end of a set-over-set and his jacks have you drawing to 1 out or backdoor hearts – neither of which get there.
Situation 7: You are 240BB’s deep with a massive fish who is playing 90% of hands and potting every street. The waiting list at the table is 14 deep and you have position on him. You pick up KK on the button. It’s folded around to the fish who raises for pot. You 3-bet him to $24 and he makes it $70. You elect to flat call. The flop is Kh 7s 2d. He pots it right into you for $140 and you flat call. The turn is the 2h. He now shoves and you call. The river is a harmless 8 and you scoop a massive pot in which your kings out-flopped his aces. He sits out and leaves.
Situation 8: You open 9Ts from the button and a 30/10 player from the BB calls. The flop gives you the nut straight: 8c Jc Qs. He check/calls your $10 c-bet. The turn is a blank – 4s. He once again check/calls your turn bet. The river is the Kc. He thinks for a bit and pots it into you.
Situation 9: A super-aggro (35/31) player raising UTG and you flat with 88 on the button. The flop comes 8h 6h 2d. He c-bets to $10 and you raise to $32. He flats fairly quickly. The turn is the 5h and he checks to you. He checks, you bet $40 into the $70 and he calls. The river is the Th and he shoves. You hate life and decide to make the fold. He scoops the pot and shows you Kc Jd.
So … those were some of the situations going through my head. None of these actually happened as such at the tables, but these are definitely representative of situations that happen all the time. In my next blog post, I will try to break down what it is specifically about these situations which could/will put you on tilt.
For now, let me know which one of these would tilt you the most. Also, please leave a comment in which you describe a hand (real or imaginary) that can/has caused you to feel really tilted.
Jan 5, 09 08:31:06
All of the situations about post all-in equity never, ever, ever tilt me because of pokerev software. I don't consider my blue line at all important.
The most tilting is easily 5.
Jan 5, 09 08:56:26
Reading this tilted me, lol. I would say 1, 4, 5 and 8 are a tie for how much they tilt me.
Jan 5, 09 09:18:30
You just decribed my entire month of December. After having my best month ever in November, I think every situation you descibed happenened to me every session I played. It tilted me so much that I quit playing for a couple of weeks, and ended the month down @ 13 buy ins.
Jan 5, 09 09:56:26
Ummmm... How about all of these? How about check a hand I posted where some loose/passive fish donk/calls, donk/calls then shoves the river into me repping trip 4s... I can't stand villains who donk/call the flop then donk the turn...
Jan 5, 09 10:42:29
i came close to going on major tilt last night when my AA got cracked by Q3 and he hits flush and then a few minutes later AA gets beat by 78 when he flops trips. Worst thing about it is that I wasn't even going to play on sunday but decided to put in a few hands before going to bed. Nice to try to go to sleep losing 2 buyins when you weren't even going to play.
Jan 5, 09 11:27:09
i dont tilt too terribly bad, but the worst is a session where situation 5 comes up 3 or 4 times in just a few hundred hands.
Jan 5, 09 11:29:22
Situation 3 is the most tilting. Sigh.
One hand that has caused me to tilt real bad was on 2-4 where I raised utg AK (s) to 12 140bb deep. A fish with similar stack I have been abusing alot 3bets to 30. I lick my mouth and 4bets to 74. He tanks for like 1 minute and repops it to 212 and I knew ha had nothing. I pushed and he snapcalls.
Flop A99 turn 2 river 4.
I was like 100% sure I had him beat until he show 10.7 of clubs. The bastard had rivered a flush. Normally its hard for me to tilt but at that moment I was really mad.
Jan 5, 09 15:34:44
Didnt read all of the situations, but the one that would tilt me the most is a hand where i make mistake after i've taken a few beats. That's the one that always gets to me.
FWIW if you want to get over tilt i'd reccomend playing plo for a month. After the first few days, you stop feeling that tilt feeling in your gut.
Jan 5, 09 17:06:19
Omg, I'm so f'ing tilted right now from this.
Situation 3 where the villain calls you down on ever street with the underpair to the board and catches a rivered set to stamp out your Aces...and then says that bullshit about "putting" you on some other hand. Omg, I basically want to kill myself when that happens.
Also, I laughed my ass off at Situation 5...doesn't even matter what the outcome of the hand is. Happens a lot too.
Great job; keep up the good work.
Jan 5, 09 18:38:28
Haha, this is gold. Hilarious.
I think I only find this funny because it used to happen to me tons, but I very rarely tilt anymore.
Whats up with 7 though, you stack the fish deep?!? Whats so bad, that he leaves? You've got his \$\$\$ though. Or is it that he actually had a hand? I dont get it, I'm well happy when that happens....
Jan 6, 09 00:20:07
lol i was about to start a session but for some reason i don't feel like playing anymore.
One thing that tilts me hard is when i 3 bet a semi decent reg in the blinds with say KK and they flat. Flop come's Jd7h3s, i bet half pot hoping to induce something crazy. Opponent tanks for a bit and then shoves, i snap only to see him flip 33.
Jan 6, 09 01:16:12
Situation 2 is very funny but soo anoying.
Lol at the way you wrote them, there is a hint of a dark humour in all of them.
Jan 6, 09 04:31:37
snapjam hand 5 imo :P
seriously though, i don't see how hand 9 is a fold against a maniac.
if these hands happened the way you described them, that'd probably tilt me, because i made a mistake in hand 9 for sure if i folded and possibly hand 5 too, but i can't tell without more info.
The thing that tilts me most is tilting(not playing my A-Game). If I make stupid mistakes that's when I get angry the quickest.
So as Katy and I are making dinner, I told her that I am about even for the day. I was quite proud of this since at one point I was stuck more than 5 BI's. She asked if I was getting it in good (hold the jokes please) as this is a concept we've often talked about as it relates to expected winnings. I told her "well ... kind of."
I got KK in pre-flop and ran into AA. So ... I'm getting it in with 18% equity, and thus mathematically I'm getting it in badly. But ... vs. the player's range, (he opens MP, CO cold-calls, I squeeze KK on the button, he 4-bets, I shove) I am getting it in very good.
In another hand, I cold-call 99 on the button vs. a loose CO open. The flop is A 6 9 with two hearts and a club. He bets, I raise, he calls. The tuns is the 2c. he checks, I bet enough to leave about a PSB left for the river and he calls. The river is the 3c. He checks, I shove for value and he snap-calls with A7c for a backdoored flush. So here I got it in with 0 equity, but the play was correct.
Finally, I have QQ in the BB 140BB's deep. Button (19/18) raises, SB (48/21) flats, and I 3-bet from the BB to $30. Button folds and SB ships it in. I snap call, spike a queen, and put a bad beat on his KK. This is one that I acutally did wonder about. I'm still not good enough to fold QQ here vs. a 48/21 type player in a obvious squeeze situation. I've seen players shove AJ in this spot before.
Finally, consider this: You get AA in pre-flop 6 times and win all six hands. What most players forget is that you are now running above expection. Whenever your hands hold up vs. other player's non-zero equity, we are "running good" - even if we continue getting it in with great odds. Thus, I'm starting to think less and less about "running above or below equity" and just start focusing on making optimal plays vs. other player's ranges.
I did end up putting in an evening session and finished up about 2.5 BI's on the day making a very nice comback.
This puts me at 11,243 hands for the month and 5,585 VPPs so I feel like I'm taking care of business.
Jan 2, 09 21:18:42
It's amazing how the "running good" way of thinking is misconceived. LJJones does a great job at discussing this in his HU series videos.
Jan 3, 09 08:13:45
"getting it in good?"... Thats what she said... Couldn't help it.
The idea behind getting it in with AA 6 times and winning is something that a lot of players (myself included) fail to think about. I took on a friend who has been playing poker about 4 years but is a losing player and basically unknown and he had a really hard time just grasping the concept. If only it were that easy to say "well, he did have 12 percent equity, so I cant complain." Its just hard to not get emotional about it.
This has been my one goal for 2009. Put in the time at the tables. Today I got off to a good start and played close to 5K hands over five and a half hours. This is exactly what I want to do this year. As the years progresses, I want to put in between 6-8 hours 5 days a week. I also picked close to 2.5K VPPs which is another way I will track my volume.
The thing about playing poker full time is that an eight hour day is not the same as an eight hour day at most other jobs. The swings, the highs, and the lows make it so that I can't (shouldn't) play for more than two hours. Even Tommy Angelo says this in his book:
"A set is the amount of time between sitting down and standing up. Think of your poker life as a series of sets. A set is typically an hour long. Shorter than an hour is fine. Longer than a hour might be fine. But longer than two hours is never fine.
A session is one or more sets groups in time. Long sessions are fine, but only for as long as you are fine, and only if done in sets.
A break is the time between sets. To take a break, remove yourself physically from the game, and also mentally. What's critical is that you stop the poker thinking, even if it's only for a few seconds. " (EOP, p. 34)
As Katy and I were walking our dogs in the evening, we were discussing the fact that I ran well (i.e. - my good hands were holding up, I was hitting good flops and people were paying me off) but wanted to keep on playing. She said "why not quit for the day when you're up as much as you are?"
I told her that I cannot have my daily goals being financial - it needs to be about volume of time I spend at the table. This is truly the only thing I have control over. Thus, at the end of the day, I am accountable for the amount of time I spent playing. Whether I'm up or down is for the most part going to be out of my control. Yes, I do have a financial goal for 2009, but that's more abstract on a day to day basis.
That said, I did have my first 4-figure day of 2009 which was a nice bonus :)
Jan 2, 09 01:15:47
very nice Verneer! very encouraging to read. my goals are similar...just putting in the time!
are you playing full ring mainly and 12 tabling or what kind of games are you going to be mainly focusing on as you put in the hours?
Jan 2, 09 01:16:46
Nice man, I do think tho when you are running bad and you start to play bad you should quit for the day. Nobody plays their A game when they loose 5 set over sets or AA vs KK's Etc in a row.
Jan 2, 09 06:11:17
I am going semi-pro in 2009 and will be putting in 20 hours per week.
I will be paying myself an hourly rate (from my bankroll) regardless of whether I actually win or lose. Then I can focus or playing well and short term variance is not an issue.
Jan 2, 09 06:35:10
The stakes are starting out at 1/2. I do a mixture of FR and 6-max and will probably throw in some HU as well. I feel fairly comfortable with both 6-max and HU and am planning on getting better at FR.
But ... I usually have a couple 6-max and a couple FR tables open at the same time ATM.
So yesterday I had a nice 5 BI winning day. I decided to walk away and call it a successful day. Then I started reading some blog on CR and watching some of the hands that people posted and decided that poker is too profitable of a game to just sit out. I'll just open up a table or two ...
And thus I get drawn back in after I've already called it quits for the day. And I quickly drop close to two buy-ins. Why did I even sit back at the tables? There was really no reason for it. I end up at two 6-max tables playing with a REALLY aggressive player HU who then sits out after a third person sits in. I ask if he wants to play at the HU tables and since he's up about a buy-in on me he agrees.
We fire up two HU tables and after I take a little over three buy-ins from him he just types "lucky donkey" and leaves me. He cold-called a 4-bet OOP with T8s a few hands before this happened. It's funny how everyone is Phil Ivey when they play 100NL and below.
So ... I end up quitting having won about 6 BI's on the day, but why did I even sit back down?
Also, I was looking at my 100NL stats for this month:

Yeah ... the HU and 6-max are fairly small sample sizes, but just from the feel of it I think I have the biggest edge in short handed games. It also helps that I have been playing at most 10 tables whereas I ended up playing 18-24 when I played Full Ring.
I think in 2009 I will play a mixture of 6-max, FR, and HU. It's just silly grinding for bonuses which are a small fraction on the hourly rate that I'm sacrificing by playing too many tables at stakes where my edge isn't optimized.
Also, here is the # 1 secret to winning at poker: Bum hunt. Look at all the big winners. It's what they do. For example, since I've been grinding 100NL on Stars, I've been following the big winners:
http://www.pokertableratings.com/topwinners.php?si...
I won't got into a lot that I see them doing, but watch what both Rennwurm and jrockhaf do - what tables they sit on and what tables they stay on. Oh yeah ... they do their best at bum hunting :)
Dec 28, 08 21:04:44
Thanks for the advice not sure if you saw before you logged off. I appreciate it. GL!
Dec 28, 08 21:07:29
i couldn't agree with you more. i believe the difference between the top winners and the marginal to break even players are things like table selection and emotional control.
there is so much more to making money in poker than actually playing poker. this has become more evident to me the higher stakes i play where it becomes more difficult to make money, but once you figure it out i think the results will definitely be worth it.
Ever since I've decided to take the 2008-9 year off and play poker full-time, I've been pretty disappointed with myself. I found myself not playing as much as I would like, jumping around different games (HU, 6-max, 50NL - 200NL), and wasting too much time (I have a very bad habit of just checking my e-mail every few minutes).
The results have thus reflected my disconnected and unfocused approach. I've won money but it hasn't been nearly as much or as consistent as I would have liked. I feel that if I am truly going to be a professional, my approach needs to be methodical and direct. Nothing short of giving it my all will be good enough.
Thus, I need to start with the things which have kept me from playing up to my potential:
A) I am often tired.
B) I waste too much time at the computer on things which don't improve me as a player.
C) I play too many tables and/or autopilot
D) I don't put in consistently long hours (~8 per day as I would on a normal job)
By far my best results have been when I 2-tabled HU. Towards the end of the year I 20-24 tabled FR and it's pretty clear that this will not be the way to go for 2009.
Where do I want to start? Well, results wise I would like to cash out $100,000 by the end of 2009. This includes money I win as well as bonuses I grind out. Now ... more importantly ... how do I get there?
Let's start with the three issues above. First of all, I'm often tired. For as long as I don't remember, I have not slept well. I wake up often through the night and by the time 4:30 or 5:00 rolls around I'm awake and laying in bed waiting for a remotely decent time to get up and not wake Katy up. This often fails and she asks what time it is. I sheepishly say something like 5:30 or whatever. Meh. I have no problem actually going to bed - I go between 10:00 and 11:30 and usually fall asleep right after I lie down (this is a sign of sleep deprivation I think).
Thus, the fatigue issue needs to be addressed. How can I get myself to get a good night's rest? If I don't, how can I fit in good naps during the day so that I'm not dragging myself and just trying to make it to 10:00 so that I can go to bed and face another restless night?
1. I exercise regularly (running, pull-ups, pushups) so I don't think that's an issue.
2. I've never been able to meditate (I get antsy too quickly and lose focus), but maybe not doing any computer related things at least an hour before going to bed is something to try. I usually go downstairs to my bedroom RIGHT after I get of the computer. I also usually go upstairs to the computer first thing when I wake up. Maybe both of those things are causing my restlessness.
3. Katy is vegeterian so by default I mostly eat vegeterian stuff at home as well. I do think that diet is a big part of my overall energy level and fatigue though and will have to mess with that a bit.
4. I have allergies, but for the most part they have been under control recently.
This is the # 1 issue which will keep my from achieving my potential poker wise and one that I need to really think about and come up with a plan for before January 1st.
I don't want to keep this blog too long so I will continue with the other parts in the next entry.
Dec 24, 08 07:58:33
Just get up when you're awake rather than lying there, and then take a siesta in the afternoon. Surely during the summer in Georgia a hammock in the garden would be a good use of an hour or so!
Also, 4.30 will coincide with late night players on the west coast who are getting tired so you should be rested and have an edge over them....+EV.
Dec 24, 08 11:17:33
yea just plow some pokers when u cant sleep, usually what i do. and after winning a few buyins i can fall asleep rather easy hehe
Dec 24, 08 13:31:13
Verneer, i think you should definitly work on the meditation part. It doesnt really matter when you do it or for how long, but i think that just taking a moment to just acknowledge the now and just see whats going on around you, and really centering yourself does wonders for your poker game, and just your overall approach to living. I think through meditation you can find out a lot of things about how your mind works and the negative effects it can have on your poker game.
gl
Dec 24, 08 15:04:29
I wouldn't want to worry you but it could be possible that you suffer from 'sleep apnea' it's fairly common, and can seriously affect you during the daytime when you're awake, where the sufferer may become conditioned to the daytime sleepiness and fatigue associated with significant levels of sleep disturbance.
Might be worth speaking to your gp about. It's more than likely something else, but my dad had similar problems, and it turned out this condition was disrupting his sleep, making him tired during the day.
Dec 24, 08 15:07:30
Get a sleep number bed, they are pricey, but soo worth it. I used to never be able to sleep throughout the night, but now I sleep too good.
Dec 24, 08 15:39:57
dude, why don't you shut the fuck up and play some hands. how are you even a coach. Can you even beat 100nl? you spend so much time jerking off with your notebook thinking about poker instead of grinding hands, you life tilt me. - fero
Dec 24, 08 21:00:48
TJ - do you do it yourself? If so, when?
hellnative - I've actually thought that I had this before. I haven't actually gotten tested for it though.
bazuko - I have a really good bed, so I don't think that's an issue.
fero - I've played over 90K hands in December so far. Why are you reading my blog?
So I've been running a bunch of numbers recently as far as what I will need to do for 2009. For one, I want to get a lot more volume at the low stakes full ring. I will be playing a lot of tables (16 - 24) and a lot of hours each day. Right now I'm comfortably rolled for 100NL but have been seriously thinking about playing some 200NL. I don't have enough on Stars to play that given the number of tables I want to play, and thus for the first time in my life I've started debating getting a partial stake in my play.
Right now I have in mind a stake of $6K. Payouts would go as follows:
1. First 2K goes to the backer.
2. After that every 2K we split 50/50 until the backer makes back $6K.
3. Daily stop-loss of 3 BI's.
4. If I lose a total 10 BI's (2K) then I think we should call it quits.
5. The backer can pull out completely at any time he or she chooses.
6. If I play 100NL then that does not count towards the backing total.
Having been involved in numerous stakes in my play so I will keep my backer informed about everything going on. So basically it's risking 2.4K in order to win $6K.
There are a couple of reasons why I've debated doing this. First of all, you get 33% more VPPs on Stars at 200NL than you do at 100NL. Secondly, I want to reduce the individual variance of playing a level higher. This is the key I think.
If you are interested and would like to see some stats from my 100NL full ring play, please contact me directly (I do not want to publish them on this blog) and feel free to amend any of the details above. I've put the rules together in a way that I thought would be most fair given my experience with backing, etc. I plan to post my general plan for 2009 a bit later on ...
Addition: I'm also considering doing a partial stake from a few people, with the same rules above (payouts in %) but that would be more work. It might be better since that reduces everyone's individual risk that's involved and makes the amount easier to gather. If that's the case I might re-do some of the details.
Dec 22, 08 01:04:43
pm me, I would be down for a partial stake, dunno if I can afford 6k atm
Dec 22, 08 19:02:06
I would be down to stake you, feel free to contact me if you haven't already found enough people.
Dec 22, 08 19:02:07
I would be down to stake you, feel free to contact me if you haven't already found enough people.
Dec 22, 08 22:36:00
warning unsolicited advice to follow :)
if you are beating 100NLH just grind up the role and start mixing in 200NLH games. there is no reason to give away 1/2 you profits at 200NLH as the extra VPPs are not worth anywhere close to 50% of your winnings at 200NLH even if it means a few more months playing 100NLH.
if you do get backed no reason to give first 2K away as that is not fair to you. just do a 50/50 deal with make up for a set period of time
GL whatever you do
Dec 23, 08 02:45:25
looks like you already got quite a few offers but PM me if you're still looking
Dec 23, 08 10:54:19
why do you need a stake? i don't understand why you're so allergic to some risk? 200nl is not much harder than 100nl. it's time to start moving up, bro.

Now what?
Dec 16, 08 16:34:31
Wait, the Supernova status only lasts 2 months? I assumed if you reached SN you would retain that status until 12-31-09.
Dec 16, 08 22:18:56
Pretty sure it just shows 2 months but as long as you get 10k vpp's a month you retain it. And yeah, SNE next year imo.
Dec 17, 08 03:25:30
If u just got done getting SN, you will be supernova starting next year all the way until june. You can only miss one month where u dont get the 10k vpps and still be a SN for until june. If you havent gotten 100k vpps by then, you will turn into goldstar, until u reach 100k vpps again.
Dec 17, 08 07:06:18
Lie down in a darkened room until you can see straight again after all that staring at 24 tables...!
Hand # 1: http://www.pokerhand.org/?3592802
Hand # 2: http://www.pokerhand.org/?3592790
And then this hand kept me from a 1K day: http://www.pokerhand.org/?3592820
Other than that, I had a "oh crap" moment when I realised that after cashing out I only had 30 BI's for full ring. This shouldn't normally be a problem, but as I was 24-tabling, I realized I had only a buffer of 6 BI's. So ... I had to scramble and ask people to ship me cash. Oops.
Dec 16, 08 02:52:39
This may be a dumb question (I haven't looked at the Stars FPP program) - what does SN get you? Better rakeback? Bonusses? A cool set of star icons on your avatar ;-)
Dec 16, 08 04:52:06
Mat: Here is an article which addresses this:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue47/pokerstars-vip.php
I feel like my game is full of leaks (which is why I'm playing 100NL), but I have also identified quite a few of them in the last few days and am starting to make good adjustments. I'm also starting to see clear spots to fold sets - something I could never do at 6-max.
I'm also starting to get comfortable with playing 15 tables. I have messed around with 18 and 21 but find that I just end up timing out all over the place. Meh. I tiling them instead of putting them one on top of another. I think the people that 24 table put them one on top of another. I don't think I could do that at this time.





